Help. Only some transponders have signal on 1 receiver

[saulin]

Hey guys, I recently tweaked my dish and replaced my LNB. It's a new LNB and on 1 of my receivers it works fine, I get better signal with this LNB too.

This is how it's setup, the LNB port 1 goes to the motor and then from the motor down to my first receiver, on the second port on the LNB I have my second receiver connected. I used to have a converted Nano 2 on the second port and everything worked perfect. It was on a different LNB though but I noticed this problem with this second receiver even before changing the LNB.

This is what it does. It's a Viewsat Max HD, the receiver working fine is a Viewsat 9000 HD. What the Max HD does is that when you go into antenna settings and you set your LNB to Standard or Universal and the Freq to 11250 as usual, I just don't get any signal on some TPs even though they are configured properly. I even reloaded the software on the receiver and did a factory reset, I even deleted the transponders, left 1 working TP and it automatically scanned the channels and reconfigured all TPs but some of them have no signal.

What is odd is that in the Viewsat 9000, I can turn off the LNB power and I get no signal. But on the viewsat Max HD, doing so makes the working transponders not work and the non working transponders work.

So with LNB power on I get signal only on some TPs, with LNB power off the signal comes for the rest and goes away for the ones that had signal. I believe it does this with all my LNBs because I tried 3-4 that I have when I was tweaking my signal and I noticed this issue then. I was hopping that reloading the software would help but it didn't. What could be causing this?

Also I'm pretty sure that if I use the same connection I have for the Viewsat 9000 because I did this before for the Viewsat Max. Everything works fine then. Is it something with the motor? Could it be the cable?

***Edit***

Ok just adding more info here. It can't be the motor, I remember when I was aiming for 119 using the magic bracket. I had 110 going to receiver 1 working fine and on a separate LNB I was trying to get 119 and that one was just going to the second receiver and I was having this issue. I believe I had this issue with all LNBS too. Now that I think about it, it could be the cable. It's odd that I do get strong signal on the TPs I get though and when I togle LNB power on/off I do get the others but lose some others TPs. But the cable was sitting outside for a month or so and it has been raining a lot. The cable is not wet now but maybe that is causing it to do that. I'll try the receiver downstairs again and if it works fine there, then I'll redo the ends of the cable or change the cable I guess.

Any idea of what could be the problem guys?

[stman]

How do you have your system grounded?

[saulin]

Well the cable going downstairs has a cable for grounding so I strapped one end to the tripod and on the other end to the metal feet of the TV stand. The second cable is not grounded. I didn't look much into grounding when I set this up. In fact I never grounded any of my dishes before.

[stman]

When you run multiple receivers and run into issues like this, you can see the importance and value of proper grounding. Some receivers can work without it and some run into conflicts. So far the system isn't really grounded.

[saulin]

When you run multiple receivers and run into issues like this, you can see the importance and value of proper grounding. Some receivers can work without it and some run into conflicts. So far the system isn't really grounded.

Mmm so you really think is grounding issue? I had a Nano 2 working just fine before and that Viewsat Max HD I used it downstairs and it had signal on all TPs and worked just fine. The only thing different is that it was on a different cable, the Nano 2 was on the same cable I'm trying the Viewsat max on. I will bring it downstairs and see what happens, if it's normal with the other cable, I will re-do the coax ends or maybe even swap the cable. If it acts the same then I don't know what could be the problem. I do find odd that turning off the LNB power in the Antenna settings actually brings back the quality of the other TPs but takes away the quality of the others. What it should actually do is just cut the power off. That's what the Viewsat 9000 HD does.

[Terryl]

One question:

Why are you using a magic bracket on a motorized system?

Kind of defeats the purpose of having the motor........

[saulin]

One question:

Why are you using a magic bracket on a motorized system?

Kind of defeats the purpose of having the motor........

I'm not. I was just testing the bracket to see how well it works. It's actually to be used at my parents to get both 110/119 on 1 dish.

Right now it's just a dual LNB on the motor, one port connected to the motor and the other to the second receiver

[Terryl]

Ahhhh that clarify's things.................And ST's right, 90% of the system problems are due to no or improper grounding of the system.

[saulin]

I replaced the cable and I'm getting signal and quality only on vertical transponder :(

And now turning the LNB power on/off does nothing for the horizontal transponders. Mmmmmmm has anyone had this issue before? Is the receiver busted? I have yet to try the other port on the LNB or downstairs going through the motor yet though

Ok did is odd.

I went back to the other cable. Re-did the ends but is back to the way it was. Some TPs have quality others don't, if I togle LNB power, then the others have quality and the ones that had quality now don't. The wife is watching TV downstairs so I can't just swap the LNB. I'll do it later.

What really puzzled me is this. At one point I tried the port that goes to the motor and I got nothing. No quality no signal. So basically it only kind of works if the other receiver downstairs is going through the motor? WTH? Going straight from the LNB gave me nothing. I really think this reaceiver is done then. I'll try loading another file and see what happens

*Update*

Loading older software made it the opposite. Horizontal Tps show by default but to bring the Vertical Tps I have to toggle LNB power on/off lol. Yikes! I never had this issue. More testing later, I have to try switching the LNB

[Terryl]

What brand/type of LNB are you using?

If its a legacy then you have a voltage switching problem, if it is a DP LNB then you have the settings wrong for that type of LNB.

And what type/brand of switch are you using? (if any)

[saulin]

It's certainly a voltage switching problem. Because it does work with both vertical and horizontal TPs. Right now I have an Eagle Aspen DTV32+ dual LNB http://www.satellite-depot.com/catalog/eagleaspen_dtv32+.jpg. I took the invacom qph-031 LNB out because it had this same issue. Also the DTV32+ actually gave me better signal.

But right now the DTV32+ LNB is on 110 and I just put a Digiwave DGL-1189Q on the side and tried 119 and I got signal on both Horizontal and Vertical TPs. I will switch to that LNB now and see what happens when I hook it up to the motor and I will also try it on 110.

This is the Digiwave LNB

http://www.digiwavetechnologies.com/images/pagemaster/DGL1189Q_2.jpg

For the DTV32+ I use standard 11250, for the digiwave I used

LNB Power: ON
LNB Type: Universal
LNB Frequency: 9750Mhz/10600 MHz

as per the digiwave website and no. I have no switches

***Update***

OK I think it may have to do with the motor after all. Remember I said that when I tried 119 it was working fine with vertical and horizontal TPs? After I used that LNB and put the motor on port 1 and used one of the other ports for the Viewsat Max HD. Then it was back to the same, only horizontal TPs. But this time turning the LNB power off would not make the vertical TPs come back. Also this LNB even though is rated better than the Eagle Aspen, it gives horrible quality strength, some TPs have great quality but others have much worse strength. It bumps the signal quality by porbably 5-7 points but drops the quality by 7-15 points. So I went back to the Eagle Aspen DTV32+

I also tried the Viewsat max downstairs by itself and it works great with H and V transponders. I guess I can't have both receivers working. Weird cause the Nano2 never had this issue.

Oh and this time I tweaked 119 for max signal and I still got great signal on 110, it only dropped 2-3 points in quality across all transponders from before but 129 went up a bit. I now get 71-75Q on 129, so I'm back to 110/119/129 and this time if I select the echostar package it shows all channels. This is good news because I also use Bev and before it would not show any channels from 72.7 when choosing the Echostar Package

[Terryl]

Well only one receiver can control the motor, so it has to go from the LNB to a switch (if used) then the motor then the primary receiver.

A switch would provide more isolation between the receivers.

A good 4 by 4 switch would be the best choice.

And remember 1 receiver to the motor then to the switch.

And yes the motor will add about 3 dB of insertion loss to the system.

[saulin]

I have a SW44 switch. I wonder if I can use that. Although that's meant for 2 sats in and 4 receivers out.

Well I didn't think that would be the problem because I never had that issue with the Nano 2. See the LNB is dual, so 1 output goes to the motor, then from the motor to receiver 1 and the other output on the LNB goes to receiver 2.

I also don't get how LNBS with lower noise figure give me worst quality. I have 2 that are rated better than the one I'm using and this one with 1.0 noise figure gives me the best quality signal. The others only boost the Signal meter but lower the quality. This DTV32+ LNB even beats the Invacom LNB.

[jvvh5897]

The quality meter might be showing you lower Q with better LNBs because the noise floor is lower--if you start to block signal from the dish with something like a piece of cardboard and watching the Q meter at the same time, the noise floor is where you start to see pixalation that really is annoying --any more blockage and the signal drops out completely. Try that with two of your LNBs and see if they act a little differently--you might find that the amout of blockage you need for pixalation is about the same, but the Q readings are diff with the lower noise LNB giving overall lower Q but about the same Q diff between signal and noise floor. So far I've found that the Q meters are pretty linear--if you block half the dish area, the Q drops by half way to the noise floor (so I might have a Q of 90 unblocked, but with half the area blocked get a reading of 60 with a setup that has pixalation noise floor at about Q of 36--just an example not real readings).

The problem you are describing--the LNB polarity allowing some TP and not others until you turn off the LNB power--sound to me like a box setup problem. You might have 22kHz on when you should not, or diseqc sw active when that is not what you LNB needs--what ever it is you should just try diff settings IMO.

[saulin]

The quality meter might be showing you lower Q with better LNBs because the noise floor is lower--if you start to block signal from the dish with something like a piece of cardboard and watching the Q meter at the same time, the noise floor is where you start to see pixalation that really is annoying --any more blockage and the signal drops out completely. Try that with two of your LNBs and see if they act a little differently--you might find that the amout of blockage you need for pixalation is about the same, but the Q readings are diff with the lower noise LNB giving overall lower Q but about the same Q diff between signal and noise floor. So far I've found that the Q meters are pretty linear--if you block half the dish area, the Q drops by half way to the noise floor (so I might have a Q of 90 unblocked, but with half the area blocked get a reading of 60 with a setup that has pixalation noise floor at about Q of 36--just an example not real readings).

The problem you are describing--the LNB polarity allowing some TP and not others until you turn off the LNB power--sound to me like a box setup problem. You might have 22kHz on when you should not, or diseqc sw active when that is not what you LNB needs--what ever it is you should just try diff settings IMO.

You know what. That's what I thought too. I mean the Signal meter goes up and usually that means better quality too but in this case the better LNBs give me worse Q reading. Normally my signal drops at around 49Q with the Invacom LNB. What I hate about the Invacom LNB is that it's supposed to be a good LNB but lets say I have 73Q under great weather. Then if I get some thick clouds that drops to about 65Q and then with rain it drops to say 57Q and with heavy rain it drops to the point where I lose the signal.

That's why I thought having this other LNB with better Q readings will help under bad weather. And yeah when I tried a better LNB the signal goes up and the quality drops. But I think I will do some testing to see what it takes for the signal to drop. Maybe if I get 64Q instead of 74Q, maybe the signal will no drop at 49Q but at 38-39Q. Who knows. I just want the LNB that will be best for bad weather. Plus this other LNB can also pick up 118 and the one I'm currently using doesn't.

BTW I have cracked LNB that I want to try, what can I use to seal it so that no water gets in? I thought of just sealing it with crazy glue. Will that work?

[Terryl]

Crazy glue will work fine to seal the LNB, but make sure its dry inside before you do this. (and watch your fingers)

As far as the "S" and "Q" readings between the different LNB's its all up to the AGC* and AFC** circuits inside the receiver, I use the Invacome LNB and find it far superior over the others I have.


Satellite 101:
*The AGC is the Automatic Gain Control, it tries to keep the RF input to the receivers tuner at a specific level, this can affect the "S" reading a bit between LNB's as they all have slightly different output levels.

**AFC is the Automatic Frequency Control, this tries to keep the IF(♪) signals from the LNB within the tuning range of the receiver's input stage.

(♪) IF, Intermediate Frequency, the IF is the down converted RF signal from the LNB, the signal from the satellite is in the 11 to 12 GHz range, this is wayyyyy to high to send down normal coax, so the LNB down converts it by using an LO (Local Oscillator) frequency of 11250 MHz, if you take the TP frequency of 12224 MHz and deduct the LO frequency from it you get 974 MHz, this frequency can travel down the coax just fine, it would be the first TP on a high "Ku" band circular polarized satellite.

[Terryl]

Sorry too much coffee again............................................. ......................My fault............

[saulin]

Well I tried 4 LNBs yesterday

I tried them on sat 129. For some reason yesterday the sky was very clear but my signal had dropped for 129 from 72-68.

Here are my results.

I have 2 Digiwave LNBs 0.5 noise figure

They both give about 73-74S and on the transponder I tried for 129 they gave 67Q max. I then put 4 pieces of cardboard stacked on the LNB eye and the signal only dropped to about 59Q. Mmmmm how the heck do some dark clouds or some light rain drop the signal even more? lol

I then tried the Invacom LNB and I could not get anything better than 62S and 66Q, and the cardboard test dropped the signal to the same 59Q. Then I tried the DTV 32+ Eagle Aspen with 1.0 noise figure and on that one I managed to get 67S and 69Q and sometimes would go to 70Q for a second. I thought this was odd because I had better signal the day before and the sky was as clear as it can be. The signal dropped to 62Q with the cardboard test. I decided to leave the eagle Aspen LNB on. This morning it was cloudy and the signal was at 71-72Q again on that TP and higher on others :)

I guess I'll leave the Eagle Aspen for now. I also tried to get the SW44 switch working with both receivers and with the motor but I still only get signal on some TPs on 1 receiver. I guess I'll live with just the receiver downstairs for now.

[jvvh5897]

Depends on where the crack is, I would think. If it is just the plastic case then it doesn't really matter if you seal it or not--the inside of the LNB is usually a metal case that is sealed very well. If the plastic cover for the feedhorn, then I would say just wrap it with plastic food wrap (HDPE has little affect on microwaves) and tape it in place around the outside of the waveguide part of the feed or outside the feedhorn cover--say electrical tape. If the metal is cracked (Yikes!) I would use epoxy and likely retire the LNB from outside use. Crazy glue is likely OK and I'm betting that it would not be too thick to affect things even if it is reactive at microwave frequencies, but I really don't know if it is--usually there has to be something like chlorine of florine to get plastic reactive at high frequencies. Hot melt glue is HDPE BTW.

Re noise figure: If cardboard doesn't do the job (and I'm talking in blocking signal from getting to the dish not to the LNB--what you are after is decreasing the area of the reflector getting good signal), then use something like AL foil or wood. The clouds block signal because of liquid water content (as opposed to water vapor which is not as good at absorbing the 12GHz Ku band signals but still does get some of the signal scattered )

[saulin]

Depends on where the crack is, I would think. If it is just the plastic case then it doesn't really matter if you seal it or not--the inside of the LNB is usually a metal case that is sealed very well. If the plastic cover for the feedhorn, then I would say just wrap it with plastic food wrap (HDPE has little affect on microwaves) and tape it in place around the outside of the waveguide part of the feed or outside the feedhorn cover--say electrical tape. If the metal is cracked (Yikes!) I would use epoxy and likely retire the LNB from outside use. Crazy glue is likely OK and I'm betting that it would not be too thick to affect things even if it is reactive at microwave frequencies, but I really don't know if it is--usually there has to be something like chlorine of florine to get plastic reactive at high frequencies. Hot melt glue is HDPE BTW.

Re noise figure: If cardboard doesn't do the job (and I'm talking in blocking signal from getting to the dish not to the LNB--what you are after is decreasing the area of the reflector getting good signal), then use something like AL foil or wood. The clouds block signal because of liquid water content (as opposed to water vapor which is not as good at absorbing the 12GHz Ku band signals but still does get some of the signal scattered )

Well I also covered the LNB with my hands when testing and found out that all LNBs seem to lose signal at around 49Q. I switched to a 1 meter dish now and still the Eagle Aspen LNB gives me the best quality. Oh yeah and the LNB has a crack on the plastic. I dropped it. It's just an extra LNB I have, I'm not using it. I just wanted to test it as well.