ECM's - some questions on technicality

[mars25]

It is clear that Charlie gets ECM accomplished by disabling seeder cards.

How it gets that accomplished is only known to Charlie, however there are certain things that could be ruled out as most unlikely and others quite likely.

Most Unlikely:

i) if all seeder card receivers are connected by telephone lines, then by Charlie subscribing to that IKS service, know the card id which could be embedded in the control word but not used, correlate card id to telephone number and disable that seeder card.

above is most unlikely since it may no longer be the case charlie receivers need to be connected by telephone lines, since many may who have sub may not have land lines but only cell phones.

Very likely:

i) Charlie makes a donation to IKS provider and is able to get the card id which is embedded in the keys or control word the IKS provider sends to decrypt the channel. Then it is able to send the code that disables only the card/s with particular id's which is embedded in the broadcast signal.

Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

a) is one seeder card dedicated to a channel that the IKS provider supports, since control words change every 12,15 or 18 seconds (anyone knows correct time) or one seeder card supports multiple channels.

b) at least for IPTV which IKS providers support many are from satellite, however each supported channel should have a dedicated receiver or seeder card, of course in one sub can have 3 or 4 or even more receivers/cards to support multiple channels. However one supported channel should have one dedicated receiver.

ECM's - IPTV's, Private/Restricted IKS server and Open IKS server

IPTV's Charlie does know that its cards are being used for IPTV, but cannot identify the seeder cards, since only the decrypted picture is sent back, hence Charlie cannot cause ECM's for IPTV

Private/Restricted IKS server There were some IKS providers whom one could subscribe only by reference. Hypothetically if say 50 friends get together and host a IKS server, can Charlie cause ECM for that cards that support the server? Most likely not

Open IKS server NFPS, Rocket bet Charlie makes a donation and gets the card ID no question and causes ECM

What's the problem for removing card ID's from control words

IKS providers do provide control words to decrypt channels from their servers, each subscriber watching that channel obviously receives the same seeder card id as well along with the control word from the IKS server.

It is unlikely that card id and control words are encrypted, if that is the case then it would have been impossible to view the picture.

What is the problem by having two or more seeder cards feeding the server and separating the card id from control words, then send a dummy card id along with the control words. Most likely the card ID's should be in a fixed location along with the control words?

[dishuser]

or maybe card isn't in receiver when an emm is sent
new word ford for the day...emm...lol

[The Noof]

or maybe card isn't in receiver when an emm is sent
new word ford for the day...emm...lol
Might that mean "entitlement management message" ?lol

[dishuser]

Might that mean "entitlement management message" ?lol
shhhh
don't give away old info

[The Noof]

shhhh
don't give away old info
...like update status word...lol

[dishuser]

...like update status word...lol

ancient chinese secret...lol

[jets]

the cards are not in the receiver (like I once thought LOL).

16 seconds.

[mars25]

the cards are not in the receiver (like I once thought LOL).

16 seconds.

Please get serious, like the following thread discussion.

http://www.satfix.to/showthread.php?130587-Ecm-why&p=933923#post933923

Cards are certainly connected to the receiver even if they are physically outside right?

Do the sub receivers still need to be connected by land line phone line?

[Anubis]

Please get serious, like the following thread discussion.

http://www.satfix.to/showthread.php?130587-Ecm-why&p=933923#post933923

Cards are certainly connected to the receiver even if they are physically outside right?

Do the sub receivers still need to be connected by land line phone line?
Here's a serious question for you. Why did you start a new thread on the same topic you just posted a link to in the NFPS specific section?

[mars25]

Here's a serious question for you. Why did you start a new thread on the same topic you just posted a link to in the NFPS specific section?

You are right that the OP is not NFPS specific but applies to all IKS servers, there is no general IKS server section hence I posted in the largest IKS server section. BTW the thread I posted link is in the other paid IKS server section.

After I posted I noticed that thread in google search, which I had missed earlier in this site search. My post would have been much shorter if I had read that thread before posting.

[jedi]

It is clear that Charlie gets ECM accomplished by disabling seeder cards.

How it gets that accomplished is only known to Charlie, however there are certain things that could be ruled out as most unlikely and others quite likely.

Most Unlikely:

i) if all seeder card receivers are connected by telephone lines, then by Charlie subscribing to that IKS service, know the card id which could be embedded in the control word but not used, correlate card id to telephone number and disable that seeder card.

above is most unlikely since it may no longer be the case charlie receivers need to be connected by telephone lines, since many may who have sub may not have land lines but only cell phones.

Seeder cards are not connected by phone lines. If Charlie knows the card id it doesn't need the phone number - it just goes to it's database to see whose account has that card ID and shuts down all receivers and cards on that account.



Very likely:

i) Charlie makes a donation to IKS provider and is able to get the card id which is embedded in the keys or control word the IKS provider sends to decrypt the channel. Then it is able to send the code that disables only the card/s with particular id's which is embedded in the broadcast signal.
Some people think that Charlie is somehow finding the Card ID. At one time end users were reporting something flashing on their screens in the top right corner the night before a card hit - some believed it was flashing the card ID on the screen and only Charlie could read it. Charlie could tune to different channels find all the seeder cards and shut them down the next day.

I don't think they are finding the card IDs.
I could see them subscribing to the major IKS services like NFPS/Rocket, etc - but what about the small mom & pop IKS services that have 20 or 30 friends using the service - how were they knocking out those cards?
Also if they knew the card IDs why didn't they knock out every receiver and card on that account? Most good seeders had backup cards ready to go as soon as they got hit - so they would pull out the old card and put in the new card - and it would be good until the next ECM card kill.


Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

a) is one seeder card dedicated to a channel that the IKS provider supports, since control words change every 12,15 or 18 seconds (anyone knows correct time) or one seeder card supports multiple channels.[QUOTE]
CWs change every 15 seconds and one card can provide control words for about 18 to 20 channels - so if you had 20 cards you could do about 300 channels.

[QUOTE=mars25;1195298]b) at least for IPTV which IKS providers support many are from satellite, however each supported channel should have a dedicated receiver or seeder card, of course in one sub can have 3 or 4 or even more receivers/cards to support multiple channels. However one supported channel should have one dedicated receiver.
That is good in theory - but quite expensive. You can buy a DVB encoder that works much like IKS and can grab about 20 channels from one transponder using one card. If you use one receiver and card per channels that is a lot of money to pay for subscribed cards/receivers plus the monthly subscription plus the encoders. Some of the larger IPTV services with the big bucks are starting to do that.


ECM's - IPTV's, Private/Restricted IKS server and Open IKS server

IPTV's Charlie does know that its cards are being used for IPTV, but cannot identify the seeder cards, since only the decrypted picture is sent back, hence Charlie cannot cause ECM's for IPTV
If the cards are in the original receiver they may not be able to kill the cards with an ECM - but if they find the card or receiver ID they can shut down all receivers/cards on that account.
What if they broadcast the card or receiver ID on the screen every hour or so - then IPTV would have to find a way to block that signal. It gets to be a bit of a cat and mouse game. Endless possibilites of what the Providers could do and what the hackers could try to do to stop them.


Private/Restricted IKS server There were some IKS providers whom one could subscribe only by reference. Hypothetically if say 50 friends get together and host a IKS server, can Charlie cause ECM for that cards that support the server? Most likely not
Yes they can and yes they did. I know of a card server that only sent the control words to one DreamBox as a test to see if it would get hit and it did get hit.
For a while you could grab 4 or 5 local channels from a card and not get hit while cards doing other channels would get hit.


Open IKS server NFPS, Rocket bet Charlie makes a donation and gets the card ID no question and causes ECM

What's the problem for removing card ID's from control words

IKS providers do provide control words to decrypt channels from their servers, each subscriber watching that channel obviously receives the same seeder card id as well along with the control word from the IKS server.

It is unlikely that card id and control words are encrypted, if that is the case then it would have been impossible to view the picture.

The control word is encrypted and then decrypted by your IKS receiver when it is received - it wouldn't matter to Charlie if it was encrypted or not - they can always decrypt anthing they send.
As I mentioned above I don't believe Charlie is finding and using the Card or receiver ID to shut down IKS - I believe they are somehow marking the card if it is not in a receiver and then Killing it with an ECM.
If a card was ever out of a receiver and used in a card feeder even for a very short time - it was somehow marked for destruction. You could put the card back in its original receiver and it would still get hit during the next card killing ECM.

What is the problem by having two or more seeder cards feeding the server and separating the card id from control words, then send a dummy card id along with the control words. Most likely the card ID's should be in a fixed location along with the control words?
It wouldn't help hide the ID if they were marking the card and not using the ID to kill it.

[jedi]

Raton's latest card server software would process all ECMs and all EMMs while it was out of a receiver and in a card server if that is what you wanted - it was an option in the config file.
It was supposed to emulate the card being in a real receiver - but that is pretty much impossible to make it perfect emulator.
So you could set it to process all tier EMM updates and subscription EMM updates - that way you didn't have to pull out the card to update the expiry every 45 days - or if you changed the subscription to add say a PPV movie - you didn't have to pull the card out of the server to accept the EMM.
You could also set it to process all internal card software EMM updates - so if they updated their cards it would do it while in the card server.
Charlie occasionally sent an EMM to update the keys - you could configure the rqcs server software to process the EMM key updates while in the server.

Some people pulled their cards and put them back in the original receiver to take the EMM updates - but the option was available to do it all in the card server.

[Condor]

Here's a serious question for you. Why did you start a new thread on the same topic you just posted a link to in the NFPS specific section?

..Along with that is when you C/P something it's "good etiquette" to give credit to the OP.. Lol..

[mars25]

..Along with that is when you C/P something it's "good etiquette" to give credit to the OP.. Lol..

Is it a general statement or implication there was a C/P in my OP. If it is an accusation or implication of a C/P in my OP then please identify the source.

[mars25]

Seeder cards are not connected by phone lines. If Charlie knows the card id it doesn't need the phone number - it just goes to it's database to see whose account has that card ID and shuts down all receivers and cards on that account.

How does it know the card ID since there is no response to the broadcast signal? It is a one way broadcast communication


Some people think that Charlie is somehow finding the Card ID. At one time end users were reporting something flashing on their screens in the top right corner the night before a card hit - some believed it was flashing the card ID on the screen and only Charlie could read it. Charlie could tune to different channels find all the seeder cards and shut them down the next day.

I don't think they are finding the card IDs.
I could see them subscribing to the major IKS services like NFPS/Rocket, etc - but what about the small mom & pop IKS services that have 20 or 30 friends using the service - how were they knocking out those cards?
Also if they knew the card IDs why didn't they knock out every receiver and card on that account? Most good seeders had backup cards ready to go as soon as they got hit - so they would pull out the old card and put in the new card - and it would be good until the next ECM card kill.

If there are multiple cards on the account, some cards may not be on the receiver at the time they broadcast killer codes, then it is not impacted. However not sure for a) how many cards at a time they broadcast killer codes b) how long they do broadcast c) broadcast in single channel identified for that card or in multiple channel. It is an assumption that seeders have all cards in the same account, they are smarter than that -most likely in different accounts



[QUOTE=mars25;1195298]Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

a) is one seeder card dedicated to a channel that the IKS provider supports, since control words change every 12,15 or 18 seconds (anyone knows correct time) or one seeder card supports multiple channels.[QUOTE]
CWs change every 15 seconds and one card can provide control words for about 18 to 20 channels - so if you had 20 cards you could do about 300 channels.


That is good in theory - but quite expensive. You can buy a DVB encoder that works much like IKS and can grab about 20 channels from one transponder using one card. If you use one receiver and card per channels that is a lot of money to pay for subscribed cards/receivers plus the monthly subscription plus the encoders. Some of the larger IPTV services with the big bucks are starting to do that.


If the cards are in the original receiver they may not be able to kill the cards with an ECM - but if they find the card or receiver ID they can shut down all receivers/cards on that account.
What if they broadcast the card or receiver ID on the screen every hour or so - then IPTV would have to find a way to block that signal. It gets to be a bit of a cat and mouse game. Endless possibilites of what the Providers could do and what the hackers could try to do to stop them.


Yes they can and yes they did. I know of a card server that only sent the control words to one DreamBox as a test to see if it would get hit and it did get hit.
For a while you could grab 4 or 5 local channels from a card and not get hit while cards doing other channels would get hit.



The control word is encrypted and then decrypted by your IKS receiver when it is received - it wouldn't matter to Charlie if it was encrypted or not - they can always decrypt anthing they send.
As I mentioned above I don't believe Charlie is finding and using the Card or receiver ID to shut down IKS - I believe they are somehow marking the card if it is not in a receiver and then Killing it with an ECM.
If a card was ever out of a receiver and used in a card feeder even for a very short time - it was somehow marked for destruction. You could put the card back in its original receiver and it would still get hit during the next card killing ECM.

It wouldn't help hide the ID if they were marking the card and not using the ID to kill it.

If they broadcast card ID's, they will have to suppress the display for every receiver except for that particular card ID, which means they know the card ID, they kill it instead.

There is no backward communication to track frequent channel changes. It is a total misconception, unless charlie uses a reverse communication over wireless networks, similar to home security monitoring which uses wireless either as primary or back up in case a thief has cut your phone lines.

[mars25]

If EMM's are included in the CW every 16 secs IKS server responds then it is further challenge.

However can substitute a valid EMM that is not being used for IKS.

[Condor]

Is it a general statement or implication there was a C/P in my OP. If it is an accusation or implication of a C/P in my OP then please identify the source.

You are just so serious... Did u see my "Lol" in there.......

[mars25]

You are just so serious... Did u see my "Lol" in there.......

OK I will try to be clownish LOL

[jedi]

How does it know the card ID since there is no response to the broadcast signal? It is a one way broadcast communication

If you read the rest of my post - I said I didn't think Charlie was using the Card or Receiver ID to kill the cards.
In your post you said "then by Charlie subscribing to that IKS service, know the card id which could be embedded in the control word but not used, correlate card id to telephone number and disable that seeder card"
I was simply pointing out that if they somehow did know the card ID (CAID) then they wouldn't need the phone number - they would already have all of that information in their database.
Some people believe they were sending out phoney CWs that Charlie could use to identify the CAID of all seeder cards and to protect against this that we could use two different cards for each Control Word then compare them to see if the Control Words were the same - if they weren't the same the server would toss them out as being a phoney CW request and response. Work was done on this in FSLB and also Bowman's CSP load balancer but it didn't seem to help.




If there are multiple cards on the account, some cards may not be on the receiver at the time they broadcast killer codes, then it is not impacted. However not sure for a) how many cards at a time they broadcast killer codes b) how long they do broadcast c) broadcast in single channel identified for that card or in multiple channel. It is an assumption that seeders have all cards in the same account, they are smarter than that -most likely in different accounts

Most seeders would have 6 cards/receivers per account with different sets of channel packages. After a bit of experimenting the seeders learned that as soon as they put a subscribed card in a card server it could be marked - if it processed control words for even one IKS receiver they somehow marked it and eventually killed it.
If you are running a big server loaded with channels there is a bit of an art to setting up the subscribed accounts so that you get the most bang for your buck. For example you would need two Arab cards to get all the Arab channels, two Hindi cards to get all Hindi channels - then maybe a subscription with Malaylam, Gujarati and Bangla on one card to pick up those channels. The Smart Pack was a cheap package to pick up a lot of channels for little money - but you would still need some subscriptions with TOP200 to get the regional sports channels and one card with America's Everything to get the channels that only that package had. The premium movie channels could be added to the cheaper Smart Packages. Other international packages are required for all the other ethnic channels a server offers.

You can't do everything on one account - you would need multiple accounts. If your name was Charlie Smith and you set up an account and ordered a subscription for PlayBoy, Hindi, Greek and Bangla - they would probably red flag it for investigation. Your channel selection should make sense to them.

They have shut down a lot of accounts by doing investigative work - checking addresses, emails, phone numbers, credit cards, ISP account logins, etc. - but the type of card kill I am talking about is a card killing ECM.

If Charlie did know the ID of just one card - they would know it was a phoney account and just shut down every card and receiver in that account. That is not what they were doing with a card killing ECM - they were not shutting the cards down they were killing all cards that had ever been in a card server and it was a permanet kill with no way to bring them back.

If a card was ever in a card server - you may have had it sitting on your desk at the time of a card killing ECM - it didn't matter if you waited two or 3 days to make sure the ECM was gone before you inserted your card in its original receiver - as soon as you put it in - it was dead. It didn't matter how long you waited - you could leave it out for two months and then call Charlie and have them rehit the card - it was dead and even they couldn't revive it.

When they have a card killing ECM they do every card - they don't do them in batches - every card is hit at the same time.



Some IKS server questions regarding seeder cards.

If they broadcast card ID's, they will have to suppress the display for every receiver except for that particular card ID, which means they know the card ID, they kill it instead.

There is no backward communication to track frequent channel changes. It is a total misconception, unless charlie uses a reverse communication over wireless networks, similar to home security monitoring which uses wireless either as primary or back up in case a thief has cut your phone lines.

Why would they have to suppress the display of all legitimate receivers? Charlie could send out a command to every card to flash its Card ID as part of the control word on the screen at midnight - it could be in the form of a watermark or something that only Charlie could read - it would just be an unrecognizable flash on the screen to everybody else.
Let's say Charlie has purchased 300 subscriptions for NFPS IKS server and 300 NFPS IPTV service and sets it up on 300 IKS receivers and 300 IPTV receivers that have PVR feature and tunes each receiver to a different channel - at midnight they freeze the screen of everyone of these receivers and sees which Card ID is providing the control words for that channelj or is providing the IPTV stream. Once they know the card ID they can shut down every card/receiver that is part of that account.
I'm not saying this is happening - it is just one of the theories - so don't ask for details of how they can do it.

They don't need backward communication or any internet connection to track frequent channel changes - the card can do that for them if that is what they are using to kill cards. The card just uses one of its many registers to count the frequency of channel changes - and if it exceeds what ever limit they set - then BINGO the card kills itself.